For this Bite, I was joined by then Deputy (now ex) leader of Enfield Council and Labour Councillor, Daniel Anderson. This was recorded back at Limmud Festival in December so there is an outdated reference to Prime Minister Theresa May, but apart from that, not that much has changed. Daniel’s a passionate guy with strong opinions and we are both candid in our thoughts. Hope you enjoy!
Hayden Cohen 0:00 Hello and welcome to the Bagel Bite with me Hayden Cohen. So for this one we're going to British politics again with ex deputy leader of Enfield council labour Councillor Daniel Anderson. This episode was recorded back at Limmud Festival last December, but it's still incredibly relevant probably with the exception of the occasional mention of Prime Minister Theresa May. Simpler times. Before I hit play, I just wanted to say that I acknowledge that The Bagel does have rather a lot of left leaning folk on. However, the next main episode will include the Brexit party candidate for Salford and basically I'm always willing to chat with anyone and everyone, as long as the conversation is respectful and challenges ideas rather than attacking people. If you're listening to this and thinking my view as someone who is part of the Jewish Community is not being represented, please do get in touch at bagelpodcast.com. I'd be genuinely honored to hear from you. Also, if you're enjoying these episodes they do take quite a bit of effort to produce, especially the main ones. Do share with just one friend. Go on then, three if you're feeling particularly generous, and let them know about The Bagel, you can even listen on your smart speaker of choice. It works! Leave a review on iTunes or Facebook, sign up to the mailing list. These are really little things that massively help the podcast out. Which leads us nicely onto the conversation between myself and Daniel Anderson in my makeshift studio in my room at Limmud Festival. Hayden Cohen 1:35 So we've known each other now five years and this is how we celebrate by by talking at each other romantically in my room. It's weird, right? I've just got, I've just got married - Daniel Anderson 1:58 I didn't know you got married Hayden Cohen 1:59 You didn't know I just got married? Daniel Anderson 2:02 Friend anniversary! Some friendship that is. Hayden Cohen 2:05 It was up North. Daniel Anderson 2:07 Oh, well, what can I say? Well, where is she. Hayden Cohen 2:10 She's not a Limmudnik. Daniel Anderson 2:12 Really? Hayden Cohen 2:13 Yeah…. Daniel Anderson 2:13 Are you sure she exists? You haven't just made it up? Hayden Cohen 2:16 I mean, I got the ring. Daniel Anderson 2:19 Well it could be anything, you could have just got it off the back of a lorry? I don't know. Hayden Cohen 2:21 It's true. It's true. Daniel Anderson 2:24 Well, what can I say? If you're waiting for the present, you may wait awhile. BOTH LAUGHING Hayden Cohen 2:31 Said with the voice of Labour right? Daniel Anderson 2:33 Absolutely Hayden Cohen 2:37 So yes, you you've been a Labour Party member for how long? Daniel Anderson 2:40 Oh, gosh, that's that's a good question. I first got involved in local politics in the 90s. And I was first elected in 1998. And I served a four year term back in those days. Hayden Cohen 2:54 Things things will only get better. Right? Hayden Cohen 2:55 That was the time. It was a four year term under that on Enfield Council. For me, it was a four year term and I retired in 2002. I walked away and I said never again. In fact, my joke is this. I returned in 2014 after retiring and again my joke when I returned in 2014 was it's my Sean Connery moment. Why Sean Connery? Well because you remember he filmed Diamonds Are Forever in 1971 and he said never again. 12 years later he returned in Never Say Never again. So here I was exactly 12 years later and I said it was my Sean Connery moment. Hayden Cohen 3:28 Nice. So why did you go back? Daniel Anderson 3:32 Why? Well, I think the first question is why did I quit? I was younger, we were in the leading party at the time/ I had my I had my moments in there. I was on the scrutiny system. But frankly, I wanted to do other things with my life and it was not long after when I went off to yeshiva for a time and had slightly different experiences in my life; got on with my life in other sorts of ways. But in 2014, I started getting itchy feet and decided "well, I need to sort of focus myself for what I really want to do." And I got back involved in the local party and thought "Hey, I think I could do this again." And it was a step by step. Hayden Cohen 4:15 It's interesting, right? Because 2002 versus 2014. The Labour Party was pretty similar. I mean, yeah, fine. You'd gone Blair to Milliband at that point, but effectively, it was pretty similar. Since 2015, The Labour Party has transmogrified. I think it would fair to say that's Ed Miliband's fault. And I was thinking do I want to use the word fault? I'm using it measuredly. So just for listeners who may not know about British politics, Ed Miliband made the decision to change Labour party membership from the people who could vote for the leader from members to those who were £3 supporters. And so what that meant was that a lot of far left people who didn't want to spend 40 quid a year, but would have no problem spending three quid a year. Is it fair to argue that that would be the reason why Corbyn became leader or not? Daniel Anderson 5:27 Yeah, but I don't think it's totally fair to blame it all on one person as in Ed Milliband. Hayden Cohen 5:31 It's fun though, isn't it? Daniel Anderson 5:32 It's convenient. In the same way we blame the referendum on Brexit on David Cameron. I think it's a bit more complex in all these issues. In Milliband's case there was a push. It's amazing. If this would have worked out well, everyone would have said what a brilliant idea this was and we have to thank Ed Miliband. Because it went all horribly wrong, it's all Milliband. "What a fool." Whatever. The idea was to try and open up participation. It works with primaries in America and so they thought this would be a really good idea. But like all things, if you don't build in appropriate mechanisms to check and regulate it, then it's open for abuse. And that's what happened. No one could have foreseen or imagined because if they would, they wouldn't have done it. It opened up the doors for a number of people from far left groups to become involved. Socialist Workers, Communist Party, so forth. And they basically took control in a way and we know what happened. We had a leadership election of which there were four candidates. It was Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall, and Andy Burnham. And of course, Jeremy Corbyn, who only got on the paper because he needed to 39 people to nominate him and some of the people who nominated him didn't vote for him, but they thought they wanted wider choice. Well, how wrong you can be. It's always the issue. Be very careful what you do, because it could have profound consequences, which indeed it did. So he got on the ballot paper. Hayden Cohen 6:47 I was a Labour Party member at that point. I voted in that election. I can remember looking at all the policies, looking at voting records and this type of thing, knowing that Jeremy Corbyn was of a politics I didn't share, in terms of being further left than I thought was pragmatic. And actually, I just happened to disagree with his worldview, right? But then it's democrat is democracy and whatever. So effectively, I voted against Corbyn. I didn't vote for any of the other three candidates, you know, like the others were just boring they were just boring and dull and didn't have a vision. So you know, I can actually understand why people voted Corbyn. Corbyn came along, and went this is my vision of the world. What was a New Labour vision at that point? All three of them were effectively New Labour. And what was that vision? There wasn't one. Daniel Anderson 7:41 I think you've put the nail on the head. Visions win support. And that's it. I mean, Simon Sinek wrote a book, 'Start with Why' and it says people don't buy what, they buy the why, and I totally agree with you. I think what became clear over that campaign is the three others had no clarity, no vision. What it was really saying was, after all these years of New Labour, they had no answers. They weren't able to articulate a vision of the Labour Party, let alone one for the country and Corbyn. Let's not try and turn him into a demagogue in this way. I think this is just mistaken. You have to understand -- Hayden Cohen 8:19 Go on. Go on. Do it! Daniel Anderson 8:21 I may profoundly disagree with many of the ideas, but the man articulated clarity of thought. It might be simple, but actually it was a simple message. He offered a reaction to what was going wrong and came up with a compelling vision in that way. And they completely underestimated it and he did appeal to many people. Hayden Cohen 8:38 Do you think he's antisemitic? Daniel Anderson 8:40 Okay, this is the question. I think in his eyes, I don't think he is. His vision of antisemitism or as he sees it, he is very supportive of the local Jewish community and he will go to Chanukah lightings and so forth. He will defend local communities. He will be appalled of people who throw a brick through synagogue windows or do things like this. He'll be appalled at what went on with the Nazis and Auschwitz and stuff like that. He will do that, genuinely does turn up. However he has a problem with this connection with Israel. He has a problem that sees that Jews have this connection with Israel. He sees it as a distinct issue in and of itself. And a difficulty he has with the State of Israel, which is fundamental to it: he defies all the ideas of groups which are suffering and challenged and so forth, the dispossessed in the world. Because Israel's successful, because actually they're supported by American money which goes against the imperialism idea. Nevermind the Arab states are getting support from -- Hayden Cohen 9:38 That's the bit I've never quite understood. Right. So I can understand going "the Palestinians have been vastly more unsuccessful than the Israelis" right. And so as a result, show more solidarity with them, but at the same time in Hezbollah and Hamas and all these organizations, these are organizations that are homophobic and sexist and you know all the isms and all the ists that I've got going, in a way that the Jewish community as a whole isn't. So there might be like rabbis or whatever that might be. But generally, as a community, the Jewish community is pretty tolerant. I just don't understand how we can reconcile those two things. Daniel Anderson 10:18 Well, they don't reconcile it. What they do is they push aside, like, if you're a bad scientist, you will selectively pick evidence which suits what you wish to do and push aside that doesn't. And that's what's going on here. They've created a narrative of the world. And to fit that narrative, they have to obviously cut off that which is uncomfortable. So that's what many of these people who volunteer in this particular way have done. So you're absolutely correct. The fact that all those things that, you know, gays can be stoned in these countries and you know, and women's rights are completely oppressed in this way. These are secondary and pushed sort of under the surface, where what they try and do is pick on all the sorts of things that are said about Israel and the nasty things and it's all because of this imperialistic philosophy. So it isn't robust in a way anybody outside of it and many of them, supporters of Corbyn, exist in an echo chamber. Look, we all, To be fair, all of us to some extent create our own echo chambers. Social media creates that opportunity. But I think what's happened in the last few years and the reason for Corbyn, the reason for Trump in America and so forth. I think the growth of social media has really, what it's done is enabled people who are perhaps on the fringes to connect in ways which was never previously possible. And I would say to you what's happened in the Labour Party, the hard left extremists who've joined, we've got people who are former communist party members, people who are currently involved who will never Hayden Cohen 11:33 Aren't some of them currently communists? I thought some of them had joined both. Daniel Anderson 11:37 Well they may well do, but we've got serious people you know, members of Unite union, Andrew Murray, for instance, who's in my constituency in Southgate. He is a former member of the Communist Party. He's now a leading supporter of Corbyn in this way. You've got others, you know, the Morning Star now, endorses Corbyn in this way. So you've got people who are always on the fringes, they have now taken positions in local parties in there which doesn't reflect many of those who were elected into positions. Many of us have faced deselection battles and so forth. Hayden Cohen 12:06 Have you? Daniel Anderson 12:07 I did. We had our local elections in May and this time last year, we were going through this sort of process and I didn't get automatically re-selected. I had to go through a process and there was some of those in Momentum, who were seeking at the time to perhaps challenge me and to put others in my place and that failed. Hayden Cohen 12:26 Can we touch a bit on Momentum? Recently I find them more interesting. For a while there was this perception that Momentum were a bunch of cranks and lunies. From people who weren't in it. That was a kind of perception that it's fair to say quite a few people had. And now you know, the Momentum lot that were protesting against David Icke. You could argue that that's easy. I don't mind saying that David Ike is a controversial figure. Daniel Anderson 13:05 Okay, so that's one way of putting it. I find it very hard to believe this guy used to present Grandstand and then he starts going into shell suits and going on Terry Wogan. I mean this guy was a crackpot. And he's now talking about lizards are controlling the world and lizards are Jews. He's totally bonkers. I think anybody in the right mind would say this man's bonkers. So your point about Momentum - by all these things, you can't simplify these people into being all bad enough aside all --- Hayden Cohen 13:31 Because I know loads of people joined Momentum because they believe in left wing principles. The antisemitism has nothing to do with it. Daniel Anderson 13:38 I think that's exactly the case. I do know people who are in parts of Momentum. And some of them, I can talk to very well and I would class them as friends and people I can talk to. I don't think it's so easy. So what we do is to polarize people. And because of the antisemitism issue "they're all bad. Everyone else is all good." I think it's far more complex than that. We prefer things to be black and white but actually it's far more grey than anyone would ever like it to be. So I think that's certainly true. And they will take issues on this. And they will stand up against antisemitism in the way that I've defined it and so they have a difficulty with Israel. This is the point and we struggle with and I'm afraid over the summer when all this stuff was kicking off in the Labour Party, it was some unpleasant stuff with some of these people were doing which were unable to separate. My issue is about being left wing or being out there is one thing. When you start idolizing it against one person and Jeremy Corbyn was becoming your G-d. In the same way Tony Blair, for many on the right wing will consider as G-d that's a very dangerous place to be because what you're then doing is identifying the politics with the person. That's really bad. Because if you are so tied up into that person, there's two ways it can go. That person as we will know, is not perfect, and they're going to make mistakes or they're going to get caught out in some way. You either have two choices, then if you've tied your whole politics into that person, your life and then reject your total philosophy because it's around that right or basically you just tied themselves into them such that you cannot see their faults. They're so perfect. So if they are found guilty of all sorts of misdemeanors, you defend them to the hilt and you rubbish everybody else as a smear, it's all nastiness and you cut aside that which is uncomfortable. Hayden Cohen 15:07 I feel that everyone seems to be having a different argument. So I've had this on Facebook. So I've seen people go Zionism is racism. Right? So I then go to them, "What do you think Zionism means?" And their definition is radically different to mine. And so I say to them, well, what's the difference in your eyes between being Zionist, being pro-Israeli, or being supportive of the Israeli government? And there hasn't been that navel gazing in the far left because it's not for them to navel gaze on, right? So they just have these soundbites. They don't necessarily think. When Yachad conducted that poll said something like 90% of British Jews are both supportive of Israel and against settlement expansion. Daniel Anderson 16:03 And support boycott Divestment and Sanctions which is interesting. Hayden Cohen 16:06 Do they? Daniel Anderson 16:07 Well, you quoted that poll. That a Momentum supporter in Southgate, often quotes this Yachad pole and says "Look, he says 25% of Jews believe that some sanctions against Israel will be used. Now I say to him, "No, no, look. You want to take this unit let's we need to look at the basis of the poll, who's conducting the poll? I said the Jewish Policy Research Unit is probably more of an accurate polling booth. But they selectively pick those sorts of things out and they will let draw it in a particular way. But I find the interesting thing is as I said, the way they've gone about this way you you know people got themselves into their comfort zone and they are unable to see another side so you end up- This is why your Jewish Voice for Labour is a reaction to "how can we defend that we're not antisemites?" So this group has been formed which have no real connection with the Jewish community. I've never had a real connection and the few that have, many of them have disassociated themselves to try and say look, we do like the Jews, we just don't accept Israel. So you can be a Jew and hate Israel. See, we're okay, we're justified. So you create this idea in this way. I had this on the Facebook forums of our party where a handful of people were looking like "the whole lot think like this", but it was just a few people engaging. what they're really saying is, you know - Hayden Cohen 17:15 Good Jews and bad Jews. Daniel Anderson 17:16 What they're trying to say is "Who am I, as in to speak?" I said I think I can because actually, my views are represented by the vast majority. Let me say this about Jewish Voice for Labour, they're not just a minority group in the way you're trying to balance it up on the scales, there are statistical anomaly. It's a bit like giving a platform to the Flat Earth Society to discuss science. It is so preposterous as to give them equal weighting. And this is why I refused. Southgate. CLP was trying to introduce bringing the JVL to have a discussion last month and it was pulled at the end. Once you legitimize these groups in that way, you're getting yourself-- it's like sharing a platform with David Irving about Holocaust denial. Once you start giving legitimization to certain people which have got views which are so appalling, so false, so flawed, the whole nature of debate gets completely destroyed. Hayden Cohen 18:01 So at what point would you say I can't be in the party anymore, I've got to go? Daniel Anderson 18:10 That's a great question. You asked me earlier about Jeremy Corbyn and where's does it go -- Look, I think he's peaked. I think in 2017 was his peak. I think he's out on the downward side. That's not to say that there's an alternative, which is so obvious and so clear cut because I don't think there is. We're in a very unpredictable era. But you're asking me about where -- look. How can people vote Labour? I say to you -- Hayden Cohen 18:30 That's not the question I asked. The question I asked is --- Daniel Anderson 18:32 At what point do I walk away? Hayden Cohen 18:33 Yes. Daniel Anderson 18:33 What point do you walk away? It's a great question. What I say to you is this. What people need to understand is I'm a local Councillor, and I'm involved in local politics. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't tell me what to do. Right? He doesn't run the council. We have an elected Council in its own right. We have a leader of the Council. I'm deputy leader of the Council, and we are responsible locally for implementing policies. I call local politics a franchise of the national picture. That's why you have good councils and bad councils of all political colours? Because effectively we're not all following the same direct policies. You have good Labour councils, bad Labour councils. Good Tories, bad Ttories and all sorts of things in between. Okay, we have different ways or philosophies - it's true. But the day to day stuff, you know, is generally down to the practicalities. Hayden Cohen 19:19 Can I ask is there much difference between a Labour, Lib Dem or Tory Council, as opposed to a -- Daniel Anderson 19:25 I think the issue, there can be. Coming back to the point there are good councils and bad councils. It really depends how dogma driven they are and how that applies itself. But we have certain principles which we keep referring back to, that we will not go down and we will not do. But again, how it actions itself is very much down to the people you've got on your councils. How effective they are at dealing with the basics. Local government is about dealing with the services that most people are interested in. How you bins have been emptied. How your roads are been swept. The state of your libraries. But also the other areas which are becoming much a challenge. Social care, children services and when you've got less of budgets to actually facilitate that, these are where the challenges come. So in answer to your question, which is what you asked me, I'm trying to not being a politician, trying to answer your question, but it is this. What time do you walk away? I think the issue is this. Why I can still make a difference. Can you make a difference in a tangible, practical way? I've not encountered an issue within the Council of a problem for me as a Jew in that way. Hayden Cohen 19:26 So I can ask, do you wear a kippah out and about? Daniel Anderson 19:52 I do. I do. And I've not encountered that problem. It's not an issue in that way. So the issue for me is I'm deputy leader of a council. So people said to me, "How can you still be a member of the Labour Party?" My answer is okay, let's try and understand it. You want me and others like me to walk away to be taken over by others who probably may have a very different view. How will that help the community? How does that help any of us in that way? To me it's pretty stupid. Right. So I think there is an issue locally as opposed to what there is nationally. I think as a national issue it's certainly true. Many people argue "Vote for me! I'm not a Corbyn supporter, but vote for me to become your MP." People will rightly say "But if I do get a number of you, Jeremy Corbyn will become Prime Minister. So why am I going to support you in that way? And it's very difficult to say, well, we won't allow it to get to where it is but the arguments but you can't control them now. Why are you going to control them when you're in. It is a problem. I accept that. But I think things are going to change. I'll give you my prophetic ideas. I actually think Corbyn will not win an election. I don't think the left will will win an election because I just don't think they'll win in the shires. I think they've maxed out to what they can conceivably do. Hayden Cohen 21:30 I talk about little Norma Smith that lives in the middle of Norwich. Who is little Norma Smith going to vote for? It'd be Teresa May. Hayden Cohen 21:40 Yeah, I think it will be. I think many people look but by the same token, if the future for Labour is this, who's the alternative? Again, its vision wins over, and for all his faults, it's more than just Corbyn. "So get rid of Corbyn and it'll be OK. No! It's unfair to blame it on one person. He for whatever you think him, he didn't get their own his own. There are many people around him, What are they holding? Where are they going? The trouble I have for those on the right of the party -- Look when he was challenged a year later by Owen Smith, the infamous challenge. Remember two days after the Brexit vote, they all resigned on mass. Remember that famous Sunday? Hayden Cohen 22:20 I would just like to clarify for listeners, the reason why I went "uhh", it's just because --- Daniel Anderson 22:24 Owen Smith. Hayden Cohen 22:27 Owen Smith again is not inspirational. Hayden Cohen 22:32 Well, that's my point. I'm saying to you is Owen-nobody's-ever-heard-of Smith. And at that time, they all resigned on mass. I thought at the time, someone like Hillary Benn: someone with substance was going to come forward, say I'm going to challenge Jeremy Corbyn and this is what I'm going to challenge him. This is my policy. Hayden Cohen 22:47 Even Chuka (Umunna). Hayden Cohen 22:49 They've all had a lot to say and they've done nothing. They've failed, right? If he was the best they could do. I spoilt my ballot paper. I couldn't vote for Jeremy, but I certainly can vote for Owen Smith. I thought this is just a farce. The question is, politics is about pragmatism. Right? There's too much ideology. There's too much for fitting things that they would like it to be. As we know, as a kid, when your mommy tells you, you can't have it, you can't have it. There's no point shouting around screaming saying I can't have it. You don't you just have to say we lost. So I say to you, in politics, we've had two and a half years of stagnation, because nobody anywhere has articulated a vision for this country. And that's the challenge what we need to see from all of them. And on the left, in particular, if they don't come up with a vision Labour will be in opposition for an extremely long time. Hayden Cohen 23:30 I want to get back on to Jewish stuff. Daniel Anderson 23:32 Okay. Hayden Cohen 23:32 How does your Judaism affect your politics? Daniel Anderson 23:35 Yeah, it does affect my politics. Look, I am openly Jewish in this way. But in a sense of how does it affect my politics? We've just finished reading the part of the book of Bereishit, Genesis, and the role model for politics is Joseph. Joseph is the model of going out in the outside world and impacting into the world in this way. So it's an extremely good role model. I think that's what I would utilize as the ideal. The other thing, the lesson in politics is -- Hayden Cohen 24:06 So you advocate for brothers putting their youngest brother into slavery. Is that the official line -- Daniel Anderson 24:14 Yeah. Hayden Cohen 24:15 -- as the Deputy Leader of Enfield Council? Hayden Cohen 24:17 Absolutely. Absolutely and being challenged with Potiphar's wife. Effectively, yes, it's not a perfect model, Hayden. Okay. just clarify, but I do find it a very, yeah. There's many things you can find in Torah sources about how you should behave, how you should seek to be. My issue is about again, not trying to impose your view of society. We're an open society. The Labour Party endorses a whole range of different ideas and you have to be accepting of all people. You can't impose negativity and things so I try and treat people as fairly. I look at the issue as everybody treat them all the same. We're all part of a community. Jews, Christians, non Jew, whatever. We're an open, tolerant society and we have to try and accommodate people in that way. And I find my -- Hayden Cohen 25:03 Do you think we are an open and tolerant society? Daniel Anderson 25:05 We are. Yes. I think we try to be. We try and create that. I think there are good people. Look in spite of what you read in the media, there are good people who are good people from all communities that work together and it works very well in in my borough and we have very good communal relationships. So I think that's a tremendous positive. So I seek to try and do that. But I'm also look, I have no illusions of grandeur. The other thing I say about the lesson you learn from the -- Hayden Cohen 25:29 So no Prime Minister Anderson? Daniel Anderson 25:31 I have no intention of going into national politics. Frankly, I have more power doing my role than many MPs have. A backbencher? What the heck did they have? I can actually make a difference. We have a 1 billion pound responsibility. Hayden Cohen 25:44 Let's be fair. A billion pounds is only going to be worth about a fiver in a about a year. Hayden Cohen 25:49 Very good. But the fact of it is, it's big challenges we have to make, but I've done things, you know, I was cabinet member environment. I'm responsible for a Mayor funded 42 million pound cycle scheme. The Mayor of London's funded this program. It's very contentious. Some people love it, some people hate it, you know, whatever, it's fine. Actually making big changes to the area improving the look and feel. Sustainable drainage programs, we were one of the leading parties in delivering in this. One of the leading councils, both in this country and abroad at delivering those sorts of projects. So we've done some tremendous programs, which make a real difference to the people. And that, to me, is the legacy that you have, but I also know looking at the parsha and looking at what's going on. We know in the parshat to come, Shemot, it says a new Pharaoh arose over Egypt that didn't know Joseph, and the lesson to that is, once you're gone, you're either forgotten or you're blamed. And that's something that I think we always have to keep in mind. You know, I have no illusions. One minute you're up here one that you're down there and that's fine. Hayden Cohen 26:44 Will you be forgotten or blamed? Daniel Anderson 26:48 On the cycle scheme, I think people like me, they won't forget me. They'll say well that's a great scheme. They might forget me personally, that's fine. If people like me they'll say that blummin Anderson. It's his blummin scheme. Look at him. So I mean, whatever. I heard the Chief Rabbi earlier speaking and he talked about leadership. If everybody loves you, you can't be doing anything. And if they all hate you, well, he says, then you're not a mensch, but he says get in somewhere in between. The fact of it is, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. If you get things done, certain people are going to like what you do, certain people are not going to like what you do. So you've got to have that realization. If you can't take the flack, then effectively things aren't going to work out. Hayden Cohen 27:26 So if there's someone who wants to get into politics and are a member of the Jewish community, what would you say to them? Daniel Anderson 27:32 We have a tremendous heritage of social activism. Avi Wise, a Rabbi in America, wrote books about spiritual activism. Yeah, it's quite interesting. He's an interesting figure. But we have a tremendous example over the years of Jews who've been involved in political life. I said, Joseph biblically, but over the years, you've had many, many different people across the world who've been involved in social activism in this way. It's in our DNA. And I think basically, you shouldn't just sit home if you've got a problem. I like Stephen Covey's 'Seven Habits of Highly Effective People'. And one of these seven habits is, he talks about circles of influence, and circles of concern. People who spend their time shouting at televisions or going on protests, but don't actually do anything in a practical sense or social to concern. The fact is, I cannot change the problems in the Sudan. I can't from here anyway. If I wish to make that difference I have to get involved in a group that goes out there and tries to make a big difference in that way. And many people are concerned. Have social concern. They watch on the television, it concerns them, but they don't do anything. Don't give to charity. They shout about it, scream about it, can't do anything. Hayden Cohen 28:33 So the moral is, do something. Daniel Anderson 28:35 The circles of influence are about the things that you can personally involve yourself in. What can you do? What's your particular interest and go and make it so? Stop talking about it, get off your tuchus and get out there and try and make a difference in whichever way you can. You'll find your path. You will do it. So I'm much more interested in people who do than people who just talk about doing. And that's my lesson to everyone. Everyone's out there. Please go and do it. If you want to get involved in politics join your local party, preferably the Labour party, but that's your choice. Hey, but that's the way I suggested anyway. Hayden Cohen 29:05 Daniel Anderson, thank you very much. Daniel Anderson 29:07 Thank you. Hayden Cohen 29:07 Thank you, Mr. Anderson. And that's it. Until next time baglers. Partially transcribed by https://otter.ai